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Influencers with Andy Serwer: Ursula Burns

In this episode of Influencers, Andy is joined by Former Xerox CEO Ursula Burns as she shares her incredible story, her thoughts on racism in the United States, and the inspiration for her book, ‘Where You Are Is Not Who You Are'.

Video transcript

ANDY SERWER: Her story began in the Baruch housing projects in New York City's Lower East Side. Raised by a single mother, Ursula Burns was told she was born with three strikes against her-- she was Black, she was a girl, and she was poor.

URSULA BURNS: We had no money whatsoever.

ANDY SERWER: But as she explains in her memoir, Burns was taught that her position in the world didn't define who she was as a person. And she proved it throughout her career, starting as an intern at Xerox and climbing the corporate ladder to become CEO of the company nearly 30 years later, making her the first Black woman to serve as chief executive at a Fortune 500 company.

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URSULA BURNS: The only thing that was different about me was my gender and my race.

ANDY SERWER: In this episode of "Influencers," I'm joined by Ursula Burns as she shares her incredible story, her thoughts on racism in the United States, and the inspiration for her book, "Where You Are Is Not Who You Are."

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Influencers." I'm Andy Serwer. And welcome to our guest, Ursula Burns, board member at Uber, Exxon, and MIT, former CEO of Xerox, the first Black woman to serve as CEO of a Fortune 500 company, and the author of a new book, "Where You Are Is Not Who You Are." Ursula, welcome.

URSULA BURNS: Thank you so much for having me, Andy. It's really good to be here.

ANDY SERWER: So I want to ask you about the book, the title of the book, what that means. Your mother and her advice growing up to you are a central part of the book. What do you want readers to take away from the role that your mom played?

URSULA BURNS: The-- her view, this statement of where you are is not who you are is one of many that comes out in the book from this Panamanian immigrant who, basically, didn't have a lot of dreams for her kids outside-- that included things like corporate ascension or money or power or position. Her dreams were focused on-- I call them the basic needs. You have to be a good person. She always would say to us, you have to leave behind more than you take away. You have to actually control your own destiny. She would say things like the world doesn't happen to you, you have to happen to the world.

So she had these kind of like little quibs, most of them not said in correct English. But these quibs absolutely guided myself, my brother, and my sister to do the most important thing, the thing that you can only learn in your family. And that's to be good, to try hard, to share wealth, to take care of each other, which is another thing. She would say to us, God doesn't like ugly. What she meant by that was obviously not physical beauty or ugliness. God didn't like ugly souls or ugly minds.

And so in my house, we had all these little things that were never focused on, you know, you're going to be the CEO of anything. She didn't even know anything like that. She had no idea what CEO was. She didn't even understand industries. By the way, I didn't until I got to college.

But she was-- she did-- the most important foundations that she could impart were imparted-- that you could get imparted on you were imparted by my mother-- work hard, take care of yourself, take care of your brother and sister, actually look at the world around you, try to actually be additive, not subtractive, and just kind of hustle. But it wasn't insane. She wasn't this perfect person, and it wasn't like-- she didn't open up a book and read things to us. It was just the way that she lived. It was just the way that she spoke to us. It was pretty comforting in a very bad environment. But very comforting.

ANDY SERWER: Right, and the fact that you were on public assistance growing up is really remarkable. And you grew up in a tenement and in housing-- public housing projects in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. And I was looking at the Baruch housing projects on Wikipedia, and it said notable people who came from these projects, and there was one person. And that was you.

URSULA BURNS: Yeah.

ANDY SERWER: So what would it take, Ursula, to get more people out of those environments and into the mainstream, and to be people who accomplish the kinds of things that you have?

URSULA BURNS: Unfortunately, some of it is to change the environment, right? I don't mean the physical structure. I mean, the physical structure, while not perfect, was not-- is not the biggest problem with Baruch housing projects. It's not. It is the structures around that-- the educational infrastructure, the health infrastructure, the food infrastructure. Right? The example. And so it's not about the house that we grew up in.

This is one of the things that I really wanted to talk about in the book. I am an unlikely person. I didn't know I was the only person that came out of Baruch. I'm sure that there were the pretty impressive people, but I'm not the only person who could have or should have made it out of Baruch, because most of the people that my mother was friends with in-- on-- in the tenements on Third Street and Avenue D, then to Baruch, where we spent the rest of her life, were parents, either two of them together or one, who absolutely cared about their children, who did the best they could to keep them under control, who did the best they could to feed them, with that-- most of them, like my mother, with the help of public assistance. Welfare, we called it. Public assistance sounds a lot better than welfare.

These were people who had motivations to do basically the right thing. They were not trying to create drug addicts or criminals or underachievers in school. But the structures around them-- I will say this with 100% certainty-- were not supportive. We had poor-performing schools, or-- so poor-performing that they were called-- they're now called [INAUDIBLE] schools or dropout factories.

My mother got me out of there, and my brother and sister out of there by literally hustling like heck to send us to the best school possible that she could afford, which was the Catholic high school, Catholic grade school and high school. That, I mean, would, you know, cost $20 something a month, and then it cost $60 something a month when I was in high school. So educational structures that actually prepare students in these neighborhoods to contribute.

Right now, you are zip code damned or zip code blessed. If you are born in a certain zip code in the United States of America, you literally have to be, quote unquote, the miracle to get out, with an education that prepares you to do anything other than be a cashier or-- which is not bad, being a cashier, but give me a break, you can't support a family. So I think that the structures around these buildings that we live in, that we're housed in, have to change.

We still have to have the generosity of other people. That-- you know, we are a nation-- I'm the project-- I'm the result of generosity. I went to college. I didn't-- we had no money whatsoever. We couldn't-- I couldn't make it from my house to high school, forget about it much less my house to college, without someone thinking about the fact that, if I got into college, which they paid for, that I also needed money to get to school, because we had none. We worked like hell, but you know, so on and so on. The structures around us have to be more enabling for success versus enabling for failure, and training failure. It's not even enabling, it's training failure. We have to get those structures right.

ANDY SERWER: Ursula, we're kind of in a fraught moment right now. Roughly a year since the killing of George Floyd, and not long after corporate uproar over voter suppression bills. What do you hope your book contributes to this conversation?

URSULA BURNS: I want to-- I want-- this started before this, right? And it was really good that-- this sounds crazy, it's really good that three things happened in the last year-- this is going to come out wrong, but obviously not good-- in the last two years.

One is this man who is going to be known for the rest of our lives as the person who started a movement. His death, his murder, started a movement. We're going to know this because we had another man who governed the country in a, what'd I call it? It's more than tyranny. It was like a hateful kind of energy. It was an interesting energy. I mean it's just a bad energy that literally started the second movement.

And then we had the third, which is this disease that literally changed the way that we live. This happened all in the same kind of sphere of time and created what I hope is a movement, not just a moment. So we had a time when we were all at home, we were all nervous, unsettled, whatever the heck it is, and we could see this man, George Floyd, being murdered by a police officer. All the world could see it. And the response was really what the response should have been by society, not by the government, which they just said, we're tired of this.

We don't even know-- I was in London. I had flown back to London when this happened. I was on the plane and I got off the plane. And my daughter is the one who calls me and tells me George Floyd was killed. [INAUDIBLE] I was called that day by a lot of CEOs. But the point here was that the world, we had marches in London. There were marches all over the world. London doesn't have anything to do with Minneapolis. But the people in London, the people in France, all the people who were marching around the world, the people in New York, the people in Texas, the people in California, they didn't know George Floyd. They didn't know whether he was a criminal or not. They didn't know anything about him.

But they said, enough is enough. One of the things we did know was that he was human. And the second thing that we knew is that the person, persons, that killed him were there to protect him and serve him, not to do that. And so really big. Same thing with finally after 3 and 1/2 years of just a barrage of kind of insane signals, craziness, I mean just some of them just outright lies, some of them just totally countercultural, some of them just mean. The United States was like-- I'm just so tired. Can we just move on?

And then on top of that, we got this pandemic and we get the beginning of a mismanagement, just a bad-- so I think what happened is that it was-- what I'm hoping is that these disasters, these catastrophes, turn out to be good starts to fundamental change. So they turn out to be starts to movements, not to give everybody lots of money who didn't earn it. That's not what we're talking about. Not so we can have a welfare state. Not so that we can-- the outcome is rewriting the tax code and just kind of beating up the rich people. That's not the goal here, at least not my goal here.

The goal here is more about acting like America, which is this is the land of hope and opportunity. That's what this is about. This is that we actually do balance it out a little bit better. We actually do make significant progress on racial justice. We absolutely have to make progress on gender justice, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So my hope is from these disasters, three disasters, that we end up with corporations saying, I haven't spoken about voting rights before but voting is what this country is built on. We have to talk about that. Good policing is required for a sane and organized society. We have to talk about that. Education is absolutely core to my future as a company. We have to talk about that and be engaged in it. I don't want your opinion personally necessarily.

But if we have a law that says that a woman has the right to an abortion, or whatever it is, she has the right to not have, whatever it is, that we absolutely as business leaders say that we are a country of laws. If we don't like it, let's go change it. But right now, the law says we have to enforce that. We have to actually allow that, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I just think it's a really amazing time.

So we have a time where people are actually talking about things they never talked about before. And industry for sure is doing it.

ANDY SERWER: You mentioned, just a quick follow up, that CEOs called you after George Floyd's murder. What did you tell them?

URSULA BURNS: Yeah. They called. First of all, the bigger question, what did they call for? So I got a call from the first one was a European CEO. Very good friend. Very good man, actually. Just frickin amazing. And he said, I think-- he said, Ursula, I need your help in understanding what's actually happening. I think I know. I think I get it. But I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable. What's up? He said, well, the people are in the street even in his country marching. And it seems different than it was before. What's going on?

And I said, why are you talking to me about this? Thank you for calling me. I'm more than willing to talk to you. But why call me? Why don't you call, stupid me, you're African-American, or Black people, or whatever the heck it is on your board, or in your C-suite? And this is what the response was consistently. We don't have any.

So as I got into what's going on and who can help you, and who you should talk to, and what you should think about, et cetera, et cetera, before we got to that, it was like, I registered in my head, interesting. There were four or five in one day, a whole bunch of them over time literally over weeks, tens, twenties. Darren Walker from the Ford Foundation had the same thing. Ken Frazier, [INAUDIBLE] same thing. Business leaders calling and saying, something's happening here.

And they all kind of came to the same conclusion. By the way, more than willing to help. A little bit frustrating. But more than willing to help. We should have been talking about this a long time. We were really interested in policing before. So on, so on, so on. But thank you for coming. And the second notable thing was, my goodness. They're calling because either they don't have or they have too few people in their company that look like the people that they're interested in.

So we did this thing called the Board Diversity Action Alliance. Really, it's called the BDAA. Really simple. I mean, this is the simplest thing in the world. One director Black, or brown director on your board. You've got to have diversity on your board. One Black or brown person in your C-suite. Obviously one is ridiculous. We mean more than one. But you can't get to more than one unless you get the first one. So if you don't have one, please go get one. And this sounds like a commodity that we're trading. Can you just get one of those commodities and plug it in here?

I hate to say it, but it's almost that way. You're never going to be able to solve-- you're going to have to get outside of your culture advice in your culture. You have to do it. And you can't just keep hiring it. You can't just kind of call it up. You have to have it in so they understand as well. So--

ANDY SERWER: You wrote, though, on being the first Black woman CEO of Fortune 500 company what a ridiculous way to make history.

URSULA BURNS: Yeah.

ANDY SERWER: What did you mean by that?

URSULA BURNS: The two things that you don't change in your life that you-- well, up until recently you couldn't change in your life was your gender and your race. So the thing that struck me about it was that if you looked at my background, forget about the beginning, if you look at my accomplishments in life at that point, I'd gone to two very, very good schools, one of them, Ivy League. I'd gotten a master's degree in engineering. I had spent over 28 years in a single company. I had done most of the jobs in that company.

So this shouldn't have been shocking. I was-- the only thing that was different about me and other CEOs, the only thing was my gender and my race. These are two things that I love but I didn't make. I didn't earn them. It was who I was. And the thing I was more upset about in this categorization is that it should have been a discussion about Anne Mulcahy was a CEO before me. She was a female CEO in the world where we probably had 10 at the time. And that CEO moved it to another CEO who happened to be Black, so two females in a row, one white, one Black.

My whole hope was that they would say, and we actually tried to move the conversation, how did this happen? How can this happen in Xerox? Because if we want more of this, we should probably look at what happened in this company and try to see if there's anything we can learn. Instead, it was this shock and awe of, oh my God. Look at her. She looks so different. I would say it to people in the beginning when I did the Fortune magazine article. They did a great thing on it, "New York Times" article. If you look at it, you would say, oh, she did what those other guys did. She went to college, she got a job, she had experiences, she served on these councils, she was just like the other guys. She just looked differently.

ANDY SERWER: You talked about being in a business roundtable, Ursula. Did you feel like you had a real seat at the table there? Did people really listen to you?

URSULA BURNS: They did. They did. I did have a seat at the Business Roundtable. They did listen. Part of it is my personality. Part of it is that the CEO club is a pretty tight club in and of itself. So and I write about this in the book. Once you're in, you're kind of you're in it. It's like any other clubs [INAUDIBLE]. So once you earn your stripes to get in, I wasn't plonked from, like I said, Mars. I had done all of the jobs that I'd been with them before I had gotten CEO. I'd spoken, I'd spoken to some of the companies, et cetera, et cetera, I have accomplished things.

So absolutely. Once I was there, and I think most women would say it. Most Blacks would say it. Once you're there, you definitely were there. One of the things that was very different, I pointed out in the book though, is that you feel you're there fully as a business professional. And you're a visitor on a social level. Which it's not that-- I don't mind being a visitor on a social level. I often am. As a business professional, it was fine. I mean, I knew what the hell I was saying, I was very, very, very well versed, in some cases more well versed than they were, I had a very strong opinion.

But literally, there was a whole different circle, and this is not a bad thing, it's just something to be aware of, that they ran in. They were norms in their life that were not norms in my life. And because of that, you are excluded from certain things. You just have to know that that's happening. You have to decide as a different person, whether or not you want to change your approach a little bit to be more included, learn things they learn, go to the places they-- that's fine. You can do that.

I didn't choose not to do it, but I didn't do it. It wasn't like this active thing, I said, oh my God. I know that I didn't like some of the things. I didn't like golf. I didn't like skiing. I didn't do that. I didn't belong to a proper Country Club or any Country Club. I didn't go to the places after work and do the ABC.

So I knew that I was missing some things, that kind of camaraderie, and kind of friendly trust that you get. But it was not that important for me. By the way, out of that, I still have some very close relationship born from a different set of interactions with white business leaders. I mean, very good personal friendships with them. But I just didn't do it the way that the vast majority of people do it.

ANDY SERWER: You also write that the USA is not a zero sum nation. Someone doesn't have to starve for me to eat. But what is your reaction to recent revelations about astronomical CEO pay during the pandemic and this latest flurry of articles about billionaires not paying their fair share of taxes? Does that challenge your thinking?

URSULA BURNS: No, actually it reinforces my thinking in that that's abuse. Some of it is legal abuse. These people are not cheating the system. They are paying exactly the taxes that the system said they should pay or could pay. So they're not criminal. And CEOs were being paid exactly what the system allows you to be paid.

Just like I said, the projects, it's not the building. It's the system surrounding the building. This problem, taxes, CEO pay, are not the buildings or the institutions, or the structures. It's the institutions around them. It should not be possible for you to make $15 billion and pay $5.00 in taxes. I know I'm exaggerating on both ends. It just shouldn't be. Figure it out, guys.

I don't know how much money we spent for the government, but it's trillions of dollars. Figure it out. Don't make it possible. We should have some reasonable standard that causes alarm above and beyond that that dictates the pay for business leaders. I don't mean founders of companies. I get all that. There's this other thing [INAUDIBLE] I got it. But you're just some guy who runs a bank. You're a guy who runs a tech company. I don't want us to actually have the government specifying that you've got to make $16 an hour. We tried this thing where it was some ratio to the pay of the--

And when that happened, do you remember? I don't know if you remember this. I was all over the news saying, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life. Because people figure out a way to game those kinds of things. You outsource all your low paid employees and all your employees are high paid employees. And OK fine. You figure out--

But we have to have some kind of expectation, standard, guidance, something, I said, that over a certain number, you got to come meet with me. I don't know who that would be. It would be the God of government. Let's talk about it. How come you got paid $150 million for running a public serving bank. Tell me how that works. By the way, good explanation, get the hell out of here. Bad explanation, I'm going to tell your board and your shareholders about it. And we're going to get you--

I don't think the government have to run it, but we have to have better expectations than we do today. They're not doing anything illegally.

ANDY SERWER: I want to shift gears a little bit, Ursula and ask you about some of the boards that you sit on. Let's start with Exxon which has got a situation with environmentalists. Earlier this month, they elected a third environmentalist to the board. You said the move was part of a quote "tidal wave" unquote. Do you expect this to bring fundamental changes in how the company operates?

URSULA BURNS: Absolutely. I mean, otherwise the board and the management team is kind of deaf. I'm not supposed to speak about this in that specific way, but I'm going to speak about it in general ways. Shareholders own the company. They don't necessarily know all the details of how to run it. But they do have an opinion about what-- and sometimes even more than opinion about what they think is a reasonable set of actions, behaviors, outcomes, targets, whatever the hell it is.

When a set of shareholders actively, after being actively engaged, decide that they want to see a change in something, it's the responsibility of the people who govern the company to listen, not to do exactly what they say. Because some of what they ask for is not reasonable. But we have to adjust something. Or else the whole thing was for naught, right? I mean, they got some seats on the board. That's kind of a pre good indication that there were some things that we were doing that didn't make them feel too good. If we don't listen, then shame on us.

Now I'll say this again to all the people. Sometimes they just didn't know specifically what we were doing. That means we have to change our communication to make it better. Sometimes they admit they knew and were wrong in their decision. So they said, no, no. You should go into-- I'm making this up. You should go into flying cars. I say, I got your input and respectfully say, you're wrong. And then there's another group of people, things that they said, X, Y, Z, and we go yeah, that's probably right.

So I think after shareholders speak to the way they spoke to ExxonMobil that as a board and a leadership team we have to step back and go, whoa, let's assess all of it. What's going well? What are they wrong on? And what are they right on?

ANDY SERWER: Let me ask you about Uber. Company is facing a driver shortage. Should the company consider upping pay to attract drivers like other companies have done? And I think this maybe speaks to labor shortage, and minimum wage, and all those things put together, right Ursula?

URSULA BURNS: Yeah. But the minimum wage for Uber is not really that-- it's not that applicable. Because drivers are not employees of ours. But the answer to the first part of the question is more than should they, they are. We're in a free market, a free market environment. And if a commodity, drivers are more than a commodity, but follow the analogy for a minute without being insulted everybody out there, becomes in short supply, that commodity-- so supply is limited, demand is high, prices go up.

If that doesn't happen with a driver, then I'm confused. I mean, so absolutely. As drivers are in short supply, there has to be, for Uber to remain the leader that it is, it has to compete for drivers, and obviously for the best drivers. So absolutely they will follow the market. They will-- now there's a point where this whole thing kind of implodes on itself. That's great news about capitalism is that it generally it corrects way before it implodes on itself. And you pay too much, demand comes too high, you start to put it--

You know how that works. I think it'll work. So while it's tight, yeah, we're going to have to actually compete. And we do.

ANDY SERWER: Do you support raising the minimum wage from [? $7.85 ?] an hour?

URSULA BURNS: I think the minimum wage-- I call this-- now I'm not an economist, Andy. And I know that I've been in meetings where economists have told me that this is going to be a deathly thing that it's going to break something. I don't know what it is. I lived in a house with a woman who raised three children gracefully. Her children benefited from her sacrifice and from generosity. She made her highest wage was $4,400 a year. She worked like hell.

And my mother died when she was 49 years old. She died when she was 49 years old because she was not well cared for from a healthcare perspective. And she was just tired. It is not acceptable in a nation like this nation to have people who work full time, 40 hours a week who do not earn a living wage. That number, to me, is $15 an hour. Maybe it should be 20. I have no clue. I know that there are variables around the nation. So $15 an hour doesn't mean the same thing in New York as it means in Podunk, Iowa. I don't care. The person in Podunk, Iowa will have a little bit more to save. Maybe they'll take a vacation. Maybe-- you know what I'm saying?

I think it is absolutely an imperative that in the short term we fix this wage problem. We're not going to fix it with making it $15. But I know it's broken at its current level. It's broken. It's not fair. It's unreasonable. During the pandemic, we had these people called what, essential workers. I said, before the pandemic, these essential workers we were fighting to not pay them $15 an hour. And how in the world do they become essential and we don't pay them enough money to stay in the city that they live in?

I get really worked up on this. I think we have to actually think about this so differently than we're thinking about it today. Forget about the economic system. If we can pay a CEO $50 million, I do understand there's only one of them, but there's probably millions of these other-- I don't care. We seem to live with that. But we don't live with the fact that we have a guy, a female, whoever, even a working couple who works, lives in a small apartment, struggles like hell, has-- can we give them a little bit of breathing room? $15 an hour sounds like a good number to me. It's more than that. [INAUDIBLE] et cetera.

ANDY SERWER: Now you say you're not an economist, but I think you're more qualified than any economist to speak on this issue because you lived it.

URSULA BURNS: Yeah. And I talked to the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis and the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, both people who I know, the chairman I know very well of those two. And I tell this to them. I said, I don't know-- you guys in the Federal Reserve have to kind of leave your officers. Your responsibility has to become in addition to all the other things that you're doing, monitor, I don't know what the heck it all is, you have to look at the way that people live, actually live, in the world in the United States. And you have to adjust the policies to support not just the banks and the X, and Y, and the interest making to support the structure of the country.

And that's people. Humans. It's humans. It's not just computer trading, it's not these-- it's humans. I am not for at all, I like this idea of the quasi meritocracy. We've never had one but I like this idea you put in energy, you get more out. I like the fact that a doctor gets paid more than a street sweeper or whatever hell it is, or more than a CEO. I like the idea of whatever, whatever. I hate the idea that nurses don't make enough money, teachers don't make enough money, that people who push gurneys down the hospital halls don't make enough money, people who check us out don't make enough money, so on, and so on, and so on, and so on.

We have to fix this. By the way, we're never going to make it perfect. But we are striving for this more perfect union. So can we at least start moving? Can we at least start moving in a direction? I think we can make it perfect. It's not going to happen in my lifetime. But right now is the first time that we're having continuous movement type of activity around these things, not George Floyd gets murdered and we forget about it in three months, and some other news cycle comes up.

Look at this. This guy was murdered a year ago and we're still talking about it. We're still thinking about it. We're still thinking about voter suppression. People say to me, so outstanding that these CEOs came together and signed under Ken and Ken, the leadership of Ken Chenault and Ken Frazier. But a lot of us talking about this finally get together and we do it. I say that the more astounding thing, Andy, is that everybody should have been saying-- we're not talking about Black people voting here. We're talking about just people voting.

The whole country is based on people voting. They shouldn't be voting illegally. We should make it easy for them to register and to vote. Instead of harder to register and vote. I don't want people who shouldn't be voting to vote. And we have no indication that there's even anything close to widespread-- it's just it's a friggin lie. So to now after this last election where we've had the most fair, the most free elections, to have this onslaught of laws in 40, what is it, three states, what's happening? Sorry.

ANDY SERWER: Ursula Burns, former CEO of Xerox, corporate leader, and author of the new book "Where You Are Is Not Who You Are", thank you very much.

URSULA BURNS: Thank you, Andy. It's been great.

ANDY SERWER: You've been watching, Influencers. I'm Andy Serwer. We'll see you next time.